.jpg)
Axé All Day
Andrew Thomas Carroll is a modern minstrel, storyteller, facilitator, and speaker. He illuminates opportunities for integration and growth through stories, experiences, and technologies, including psychedelics.
On this podcast, Andrew shares his own story of healing and growth through the use of psychedelics and interviews other people who have also found healing and transformation through a diverse collection of powerful tools. Topics include somatic therapy, movement as medicine, the power of the voice, finding your unique purpose, and the use of psychedelics for healing and personal growth.
If you're looking for inspiration and guidance on your own journey of healing, growth, and thriving, then this podcast is for you.
Axé All Day
S1E9: Happy Interdependence Day
Ever felt torn between the allure of individual sovereignty and the comfort of communal connectedness? I'm taking you on a journey through the intricate dance of independence and interdependence, pulling back the curtain on these two defining aspects of human experience. We'll tackle everything from the philosophical premise of Indra's Net to the everyday implications of our choices and relationships. The magic lies in the balance, in the harmony of self-reliance and cooperation.
Through my personal narrative, I share how the tension between standing alone and forging connections can bloom into something beautiful: a community built on the bedrock of personal responsibility yet woven together by shared experiences. As I recount my own struggles with loneliness and the joy of liberation born from independent action, I unravel the essential truth that growth often sprouts from discomfort. This episode is a heart-to-heart talk about authenticity, balance, and the transformative power of interdependence.
But this isn't just a philosophical exploration. This is also a deeply personal account of my journey into the realm of psychedelic healing, a pathway that catapulted my growth and understanding of interdependence into new dimensions. As I share my experiences with plant medicine, integration therapy, spiritual practices, and mindfulness, I invite you to ponder on the profound power of healing and its potential role in your life. This isn't just an episode; it's an invitation to reflect, to question, and to awaken to the possibility of a life beautifully balanced between independence and interdependence.
References:
"My Life as an Indian" is the memoir of James Willard Schultz.
The Midnight Gospel: Annihilation of Joy (Netflix)
Happy, happy, happy 4th of July. Happy Independence Day. Are you safe, are you sound? Are you out having an incredible time today? I hope that in this moment, right now, you are in a place where you can reflect on the absolute blessings that are in your life, that you've been able to spend time with friends and family and decompress from the rat race, as it were. Let's just go ahead and drop into this beat for a second. How about we do a rock on a rock vlog? It's the way that everybody gets up. Get out, go play on the water at the beach. Everything is unique and you know that it's time for me to speak. So let's drop in here, let's get in touch, let's get in tune. Let's just let's be present with one another. Let's be present with one another. Oh, my goodness, i love you.
Speaker 1:Family Ah yes, amelia, i was looking that word up today. I was looking up family in Latin. I was curious how to say it. It was actually super simple. It's just familiar me. Familiar, it's my family. But there's actually an accusative case of the word family. I didn't know that was a thing earlier, even as a poet. I don't have to know all the rules and everything that involved language. I just have to know how to paint a beautiful picture But to say I see the family it's, i can only say that. I can only do this phonetically. It's like video familium, but it looks like video familium And that was kind of interesting. But I digress. Yeah, i do, and I appreciate you coming to the Ashe All Day Podcast and dropping in today What we are going to be talking about on this Independence Day a little bit of America stuff a little bit, but not too much.
Speaker 1:But we're going to be talking about the difference between independence and interdependence. Yes, we're going to be talking about the difference between independence and interdependence And we might even get into some codependence. But we'll see about that. How much time we have And it's 4th of July for me. I don't pre-plan for holidays and stuff. I like for the message that comes through on these podcasts to be channeled in the moment. What comes up, what feels important, what is source guiding us to talk about, what medicine is here today, and independence and interdependence came up in a really big way. I think we probably don't need to touch on codependence too much, because it's something that's talked about a ton, along with things like narcissism and borderline personality disorder and all kinds of other things that are just diagnostic labels that really kind of in some ways give people an excuse or an out for certain kinds of behavior. So I don't want to participate in that Parse, perse, parse what? Okay, here we go, let's do words together. So I'm going to let you know exactly the definition of these words right now, in this moment.
Speaker 1:Independence refers to the ability of an individual or entity to function, act or exist on its own, without relying heavily on others. It emphasizes self-reliance, autonomy and the capacity to make decisions and take actions independently. Independence often implies a sense of freedom and the ability to be self-sustaining without requiring significant support or assistance from others. Now, on the surface that sounds incredible. On the surface, that sounds like everything that I desire in life, everything that I want in life That is kind of the jam is to be free. That is part of what Ache al-Day is about. Is that independent freedom, stepping out of the system, being self-sustaining, generating my own income, being self-reliant? Independence also lacks a bit of community right, sounds pretty lone wolf, and so that's why I want to talk about interdependence today as well.
Speaker 1:Now, interdependence refers to a state of mutual reliance and interconnectedness between individuals or entities. It recognizes that no individual or entity can exist in isolation and that they rely on one another for various aspects of their lives. Interdependence emphasizes collaboration, cooperation and the recognition of the interconnectedness and interrelatedness of different elements or entities. It implies that individuals or entities are connected in a web of relationships and that their actions and well-being are influenced by and have an impact on others. Now, in my personal journey and experience, i pursue, especially recently, a state of interdependence with my community, with my tribe.
Speaker 1:I rely a lot on the concept of Indra's Net to help me see the reflection of myself and the collective divinity in others, and Indra's Net is this very idea of interdependence. I want a big shout out to the Midnight Gospel. If you haven't checked that out on Netflix, it's an incredible podcast. But there is an episode man, i cannot remember the name of it off the top of my head. But there's an episode it's about kind of escaping over and over from prison and I believe they talk about Indra's Net there. But the idea of Indra's Net is that we are all the interconnected nodes on this net And each node is a sparkly jewel, a sparkly diamond that is reflecting the same source of light in our own unique way into each other node. So you are interconnected to every node on the net through this reflection of the light, through the shared light and through the strands. So it's a really beautiful idea.
Speaker 1:Now, independence and interdependence both have their costs and their benefits, right? I don't see if. Okay, so we can. We should be clear about this, just like if we had a true free market that would provide economic benefit if we were all good actors. The same is going to be said about if we were capable of having true interdependence, then we would have a really beautiful relationship in our society, societally right. But there are not always you cannot have 100% good actors in a system.
Speaker 1:So we have to be aware of interdependence and codependency. When interdependence is healthy, it's a beautiful thing. When interdependence is unhealthy, you're getting into codependency and we want to stay away from that and we want to be very aware of that in all of our interactions, in our lives, in all of our relationships, and that is not just in relationships with other people. Are you codependent on alcohol? Are you codependent on drugs? Are you codependent on the gym or some other aspect of your life? You've got to be really aware of these relationships and how they show up in your life. So independence is an incredibly important tool to be able to be alone, to be with yourself, to be self-sustaining.
Speaker 1:It's a beautiful thing to know that I am all I need. I am everything that I need in this life. I am everything that I need to be well and healthy and complete, and I get to choose my joy. I get to manifest my life. I get to create. I am a creator, you are a creator, and that's what this is all about. Healthy independence is not a state of loneliness. Healthy independence is not a state of scarcity. Healthy independence means that I have created my life, the beautiful life that I want, that I want to live, and I am a whole, fully expressed inauthenticity. I know that I am an ever-evolving being. There is no, if I find myself in an independent state of stagnation and there is no growth happening. That's a problem, that's unhealthy, and so I like to Yes, i like to believe that right now, in this moment, today, i have a pretty clear idea of who I am and what I'm about and my values and those kinds of things. I'm doing the work to be aware of that as it changes. I have an open mind and I am open and available to changing these values and ideas that drive me. That are my foundation When I am presented with information that is valuable, is actionable.
Speaker 1:It can conflict And often I prefer that I don't want to be engaging in confirmation bias. Now, if there's something that's really deeply important to me and I am doing research, let's say, like on psychedelic therapy, which is coming in a big wave. This is so important for our society. It's such a beautiful tool. I am 100% support of psychedelic therapy and that's across the board. Whatever that looks like, whether you're going to the jungle to do ayahuasca or you're sitting with a therapist in a container and they have provided you with MDMA or psilocybin or LSD or whatever the case may be. That methodology, those modalities psychedelic, somatic and reactional psychotherapy is so incredibly important, so incredibly important. So when I'm doing research on those kinds of things, i am looking for studies that challenge that And, in my own personal experience, what I had know and I see in that community, what does it look like to become?
Speaker 1:well, i wrote a poem years ago. I'll go find it for you guys and maybe I'll put it out again. It's available on my SoundCloud. I am Andrew Carroll on SoundCloud, but it starts out with a reference to a person who will remain anonymous, but the beginning of it says that blank is emotionally well And the first time anyone ever shared a statement like that with me, it gave me permission to understand and feel that I had the opportunity, that I had the potential, that I had the birth right to be emotionally well, which is not something I ever thought was possible. So doing that work kind of requires a bit of independence, but it also requires a lot of interdependence and finding that healthy balance, and that's what we're talking about today. So healthy independence is being able to be with yourself in a healthy way that's productive.
Speaker 1:Right now I am in a building phase in life and so I am rather independent. I am alone. Often. I'm working a lot and it doesn't feel like work. It feels like play, which is something that's important to me. On this podcast We're talking about play as a modality of healing, play as a way of creating and manifesting the life that you want. And these, these meat machines, these avatars, these human bodies that embrace our divine, are manifestation machines. They're also meaning making machines. We can get into that part later, but in that independence.
Speaker 1:It is a time and a phase in my life where I am building. I am building because I've stepped out of the system. I am no longer in a codependent relationship with a, with an organization, like you know organizations that I've worked with in the past We won't even name names, but I had achieved a pretty high level of success in my previous roles, but I was miserable and I was codependent and I thought that was all there was. That was all there was in life. And no, that was not the case. And I can choose joy and I can choose pleasure and I can choose that juicy, juicy goodness that that is available to all of us. And it's scary And it's lonely, because what you'll find is that, as you've created this life of codependence really with with close personal relationships, professionally, financially, with the system, all of these things when you step out independently to become that full, fully realized entrepreneur or to become that fully realized artist or whatever it is that you're doing And let me be clear, like being an artist and an entrepreneur and go hand in hand, there's a I think there's a common misconception that creating art is not a business endeavor, but it absolutely is.
Speaker 1:It's incredibly important to understand that and literally creating, where you're creating something from nothing. I am right now, in this moment, creating this episode from nothing. Essentially, this didn't exist. This doesn't exist without you guys, the listener, this doesn't exist without the life experiences that I've had, and all these things are so, so important. It's so important to to understand that. So it can be.
Speaker 1:It can seem lonely at the beginning stages of these independent journeys, but what you've got to remember is that when you make these decisions, when you make these choices to go out on your own, there are people that have been in your life who are comfortable with your stagnation, with the version of you that they have gotten to know, with the game piece that you've become in their life story. And when you disrupt that for someone else, you have to understand that it's going to cause some friction, it's going to be disruptive. People may scatter like roaches, they may slowly drift away, but what that does is it creates the space in your life for beautiful, beautiful growth, and in that you are leaning into faith. You are leaning into what the universe and Creator has in store for you. You are following the tug at your heart and that is undeniable. And when you do that, you will be rewarded because the space that is created in this life for you when you step out into that independence, that space is being made for new relationships, for new people, for new businesses, for new opportunity for you to grow and flourish and receive the abundance that is your birthright. I promise you know that, feel that in your body, be present to the gratitude, imagine, go back and listen to that mindful meditation, that guided meditation episode that I did about love and gratitude, and do that practice every day And I just give gratitude right now. I'm so grateful that I get to do this podcast with you. I am so beyond grateful. It is. I get the giggles every time I set up and I pull the trigger and we get rolling.
Speaker 1:So, now that we've talked about the independent state, what about the interdependent state? How can Andrew, how can you be independent and interdependent at the same time? That doesn't make any sense. Are they not competing ideas? Well, sure, they are in a way, but let's go back. Let's go back and we'll talk about and you'll have to forgive me, i forget the name of the author, and it's a.
Speaker 1:It's a phenomenal book. It's called My Life as an Indian And in that book. What happens is there's a it's it's way back and it's set in, like Montana, in the Fort Benton area, if I remember correctly is a white man who leaves white society to go live with Native Americans. And please don't take offense at the title There's not I'm not saying a trigger warning or anything like that. The book is written so respectfully the reverence of this, of this man for his experience and for the opportunity to live as a Native American on the land for his for life. It's so beautifully captured And what it shows and why I bring this up is because it's such a beautiful balance of independence and interdependence.
Speaker 1:And that's what I think of when I'm thinking of interdependence is what does it look like to live in a tribal society? What does it look like to have that tribal community around you where, yes, you're responsible for yourself, there are rites of passage, you are learning skills that create value for the entire community, but you're also capable and you know that you are of surviving alone, whether you happen to be on a hunting party or it is a time of war or a time of peace or a time of abundance or scarcity, that you are interdependently connected to your community. You are creating value, people are being cared for when someone is at a low point and someone else is in abundance. I guess you could kind of call it a bit of socialism. But those are labels and stuff that. I'll be totally honest with you, i don't even pay that much attention to them. And people run around yelling socialists, this and communism and all those kinds of things, but I don't research that too much.
Speaker 1:I think if, again, if you're in a system where there's 100% good actors, everything would be working fine. But there are not. There are people acting out of scarcity and it's unfortunate. There's plenty for everybody, but they were taking care of people, you know, people who didn't have enough to get by at a time. The village would come together, the tribe would come together and help them out. They would make sure that they were fed and clothed and cared for, and elders are respected for the wisdom they bring to the fire. And children are protected above all else, because they are the divine little beings who will change the world. They are the breath of the future.
Speaker 1:So interdependence to me is a pretty easy concept. It is really just about community and helping others, cooperation, shared responsibility and collective well-being. And independence fosters individuality, self-sufficiency and personal growth. Interdependent relationships also foster personal growth Big time, big time. Listen to that again. Interdependence also fosters personal growth in a huge way. The reason being is that relationships are a playground in which we get to do work that we cannot do by ourselves, and so, whether that's romantic or platonic, or business or any kind of relationship, personal relationships you want to be really aware of that. What comes up for you?
Speaker 1:I was just having a conversation with my coach last night during our call, examining relationship and what does it look like to love quickly, to walk around in love with everyone, to see someone and just love them. What does that look like and what does that mean? You know, really reframing linguistically that people will say I got my heart broken, like, yeah, you got your heart broken open. You got your heart broken open. You have now had the opportunity to be just cracked wide open, and it is an opportunity to make a decision of like I will never experience that particular lesson again because I don't need to. That contract is fulfilled and that, my friends, is a beautiful, beautiful thing to be able to experience.
Speaker 1:So are you in a place where you are giving deep gratitude for past relationships for past experiences. All the hard things you've been through are literally perfectly suited for you specifically. I couldn't go through your life. I couldn't. I couldn't go through your life. I couldn't handle what you've been through, and I'm perfectly suited for the life that I'm in as well.
Speaker 1:So what does that look like for you? Are you able to give genuine love and gratitude for those experiences? Yes, i feel that whole body. Yes, i just invite you. I'm feeling this massive wave of just release and relief and gratitude and I'm melting into and out of myself into the fabric that we share in this tapestry. Oh, can you breathe in And just get curious. Life is so juicy, it's so beautiful and you have a choice. You absolutely have a choice. You have agency. Are you fulfilled? Does it feel like work or is it play? Have you made it a game? Are you on that hustle, porn lifestyle of it's just grind, grind, grind. What do you worship? Who do you worship? Where does your money go? What is distracting you from your purpose, from creating? So, on this celebration of independence in America, i really am inviting you, dear sweet, familiar, to consider what does that actually mean to me?
Speaker 1:America is not independent. Let's get that right. First and foremost, we live in a connected global economy and the import, export industries, gdp, gross domestic product. If America was independent, we would fail. We would fall apart. We cannot take care of ourselves without others. Without the support of other nation states and other communities and collectives of people across the globe, america would fall apart. So what if, instead of looking at everything as competition, we decided to view through the lens of interdependent collaboration? What could things look like if we ceased the scarcity mentality and approach to globalization and global engagement And we began to view it through the lens of abundance? What does life look like if we all took a little less and gave a little bit more? What does life look like if I showed you my whole heart in every engagement, in every interaction, instead of the walls or the armor, or the calluses the spiritual and emotional calluses that have been built up over a lifetime of taking it personally, how can we come together in community in this moment, right now? What can you do for yourself that will create value for the collective?
Speaker 1:For me, it's the continuation of the work. It is using my voice to present and offer ideas and invitations to a new way of life, a new way of being and really just walking in love and light and truth, truth and trust, community, independent and interdependent. In all that I do, we have a choice, we truly have a choice, and I hope that you're choosing the joy and the pleasure and the juiciness, because I know firsthand what it's like to live a life alone while still connected in co-dependence. I know what it's like to live a life ruled by dissociative coping strategies of abusing alcohol, of running away from my feelings through drugs and anything sex, pornography, anything that could just numb the pain while still allowing me to feel something, just abusing myself. I've lived that life and I am whole and complete and done with those strategies and it feels amazing and it's something even a year or two ago I could not have said to you. I couldn't have said that to you in authenticity And I've mentioned before it's not, it wasn't overnight.
Speaker 1:In a lot of ways it felt like it. But then I took a step back and really evaluated the path and I have been doing work with coaches and therapists and plant medicine and and healthy drugs, mindfulness, meditation, yoga, mobility flows, all kinds of things for years, for years. In some ways I was unintentional in it. Some ways I didn't know what I was doing, but I kept doing, i kept trying, i kept experiencing. I continued to engage in that taste, touch and smell of all these things that, oh, this might help me, oh, that might help me.
Speaker 1:And what came for me is that talk therapy ends up being an infinite black hole of reinforcing negative, negative stigmas for me, and that's not the case for everybody. I know some people who have had great, great, great success with talk therapy, but that modality in and of itself didn't work for me. When I found PSIP and psychedelics, in conjunction with integration therapy and spiritual practice and mindful meditation, that changed the game. That changed the game. And so, as I lean into my purpose more and I continue to share with you authentically, with this voice that is independent and interdependent and truly free, i'll be sharing with you more in depth about my journey with psychedelic healing, my experience in that realm, how impactful and beautiful it has been for me, and the safety found therein. So you are all so beautiful, you are all so absolutely beautiful, and I am so grateful that you dropped in with me today.
Speaker 1:Happy Fourth of July. I invite you to consider celebrating some interdependence today. What does that look like for you. How can you get down with your town, with your people, with your vibe? independent, interdependent, healthy and connected? Oh man, i am your host, andrew Carroll. I love and adore each and every single one of you. Thanks for hanging out with me. Now, get out there. Get out there, go have some fun. Take this love with you, mm, bathed in the sun. Oh no, oh no, oh, all right, i love you, family, take such good care.
