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Axé All Day
Andrew Thomas Carroll is a modern minstrel, storyteller, facilitator, and speaker. He illuminates opportunities for integration and growth through stories, experiences, and technologies, including psychedelics.
On this podcast, Andrew shares his own story of healing and growth through the use of psychedelics and interviews other people who have also found healing and transformation through a diverse collection of powerful tools. Topics include somatic therapy, movement as medicine, the power of the voice, finding your unique purpose, and the use of psychedelics for healing and personal growth.
If you're looking for inspiration and guidance on your own journey of healing, growth, and thriving, then this podcast is for you.
Axé All Day
S1E12: Therapist Rachel Duthler on the Wilderness, Self Discovery, and Healing
My guest Rachel Duthler, a wilderness therapy and play expert, has learned to embrace the adventure beautifully. Through her transformative journey from the Midwest to the West Coast, she discovered the profound healing power of nature and incorporated it into her therapy practices. Rachel enthusiastically opens up about her exciting wilderness adventures, and how these experiences have been a significant part of her and many others' healing process.
Ever wondered how spiritual and social justice circles intersect? Or perhaps you've questioned how spiritual bypassing impacts our communities? Rachel takes us on a deep dive into these complex issues, challenging us to think about our understanding of masculinity, femininity, and personality traits. Our conversation gets even more intriguing as we explore Jungian archetypes, social programming, and the critical role they play in shaping our behavior. Get ready to reevaluate your perspectives as we navigate the intricate world of spiritual and social justice communities.
On this journey with Rachel, we don't shy away from challenging topics. From the exploration of Jordan Peterson's concept of understanding evil to be good, to the role of religious trauma in our lives, Rachel's insights are profound. We delve into the power of platonic connections between men, and how they can be a catalyst for healing and growth. We also touch on the transformative power of relationships and self-discovery, the importance of context in understanding archetypes, and Rachel's incredible journey with queer youth in their healing process. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom that will challenge your thinking and encourage growth and self-awareness. Join us as we traverse this enlightening terrain with Rachel.
Oh man, you know that it's a copyright for YouTube. It's so good, right? It's great. Yeah, it's fun. We were just over here laughing because I had to move this chair and as I was doing that, I was looking at Rachel and telling her you know what we're going to have to tell this story, because someday she's going to come visit in the podcast studio and there's going to be a whole team and she can get VIP and there'll be water with cucumber in it and all this stuff I'll take that Strawberries, yo, whatever you want, it's your day, it'll be your day.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, absolutely Anything, anything. So, hi, rachel, what's up? Andrew? I'm so happy to be here having this conversation with you today.
Rachel Duthler:Likewise, this is kind of wild. Yeah, it's so much fun.
Andrew Carroll:It's so cool man. I didn't really prep the people about how amazing you are.
Rachel Duthler:Who are the people, by the way? The people, yeah, who are the people?
Andrew Carroll:They're the listeners, they're. The entire world has access to this podcast, so there's a lot of people Nice to meet you. You're beautiful. Yo tell them again.
Rachel Duthler:You're so beautiful.
Andrew Carroll:Yes, go ahead and introduce yourself.
Rachel Duthler:My name is Rachel Duttler. I hail from the Midwest. I've moved to the West Coast. Sometimes I'm not sure if that was the right move. I miss those friendly people over there and, what's to say, I'm so grateful to all the people that have helped me. And they're just all unfolding together and learning together.
Andrew Carroll:Absolutely, absolutely. What's your next event that you have coming up?
Rachel Duthler:My next thing I'm leading.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, that sounds great. Tell us about that, rachel.
Rachel Duthler:Yes, Well, unfortunately no one on this podcast is invited.
Andrew Carroll:That's okay.
Rachel Duthler:I'm just a news listening. I am leading a rite of passage wilderness trip with adolescents queer adolescents at an organization called Rite of Passage Journeys and I've done trips with them for I don't know. I think like on since like maybe 2015 or 16, I took some break and then came back, did some more work with them, but it's so hard to get away from them because it's so special. Every time I think every year I can't do it, I'm too busy. And then every year I come back. But yeah, we do these trips. That's not all young people or it's not all teenagers, sometimes it's really young eight to 10, and sometimes it's adults. But the idea is it's a rite of passage experience where you're going through some sort of transition and you're helping folks transition. And on this trip, people will be doing a 24 hour solo in the woods, supported by us, and we're helping them come up with an intention statement and to integrate that after they finish, and doing that in community.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, that is so cool. That is so cool. Nature is just. It's such a beautiful teacher and it's so healing. And that is another part in association with the play, like you mentioned, that you do your sessions in the park with people and then you do, you're doing wilderness. Oh, my goodness, like first aid certification, right.
Rachel Duthler:I have my wilderness first responder.
Andrew Carroll:First responder right, thank you. And then you're doing this rite of passage and that's so cool, it's so absolutely.
Rachel Duthler:I chose it because I like it's true, I do like it. Yeah. Yeah, I feel really grateful that I get to do this work and that I, yeah, when I was my dad's a therapist and when I was young, I was like I will never be a therapist because I will have to be in an office all day. Boo, and it's true, I am not in an office, but I am a therapist. Yeah, when I was in grad school, I encountered like research studies about wilderness therapy and I also happened to live with people who were farmers and I got so very sucked into their lives in this beautiful way. I was like, oh my God, organic farming is where it's at. It's so sexy.
Rachel Duthler:And then I did become a farmer for a while and like used my degree in this way.
Rachel Duthler:That was kind of more community based work in farms and gardens, but my favorite thing was working across a row of vegetables from someone and hearing about their life.
Rachel Duthler:And then I started doing this right of passage work and I was like, wow, this is incredibly powerful and there's something really special to me about having, I mean, I just really valued depth of conversation.
Rachel Duthler:Getting to know people's vulnerabilities, vulnerability and intimacy is really important to me and so, yeah, I decided to pursue the clinical world and wanted to find a way to combine nature and therapy stuff, because I have found my best healing in nature and it's so meaningful and important to me and I think that you know we're so caught off from it in the modern world and it feels to me like it's a huge part of both being caught off from nature and community, and like a village is such a huge part of why we suffer, have such significant suffering, especially with mental health, and so I feel like it's such an honor to be able to do the work with people and see growth and change, and also for me to be able to be outside and, like you know, I have these sessions where I just lay down with people and we look up at the trees and we're chatting and crying and I'm like this is pretty damn cool.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah.
Rachel Duthler:Or where you know we're walking and sticking our feet in the river together or like it's just, like it's beautiful, and it takes something that's like you know how I joked about like I don't like the DSM. Well, it's true I don't, but it takes something that feels like really like pathologizing and clinical and takes, makes it human again to me and makes it like that animal play that I was talking about, where it's like no, this isn't just, this is personal. It takes something that felt, feels kind of dehumanizing and makes it more personal to me again being able to be outside.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, that's so. That's so beautiful because I had never heard of another therapist that does like their appointments and their sessions outside in the park and they're out there now.
Rachel Duthler:They're growing.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, and you're on the leading edge of that. You know there's maybe one other that I knew.
Rachel Duthler:Nice.
Andrew Carroll:But by the time that I had met her she was kind of doing some different kind of work. That was really impactful for me too.
Rachel Duthler:I know.
Andrew Carroll:She had a. She had a very significant focus on get yourself outside as often as possible.
Andrew Carroll:Nice, yeah, yeah. But back to this wilderness experience, right, cause that's kind of what we took a little segue there. How impactful is this for these kids, for these, for these young adults? Cause I think you said on this trip you've got an age range of like 13 to 18. So this has got to be just so incredibly transformative, because I know that you don't lend your time to anything that you don't believe in, like I could feel that and pick that up and understood that with you from you, like almost immediately, and that's such a beautiful trait. You know who you are and you're constantly exploring that to get even more clear. And these kids, if any of us know who we are.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah. I don't know.
Andrew Carroll:I'm not sure about that yet, but thank you for that yeah, but the kids yeah, they're getting to spend time around you yeah To believe in this work. Yeah, and for queer youth, I don't know that there's necessarily a lot of people that provide them that kind of container to just fully express safely.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah.
Andrew Carroll:And you're providing that.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, I mean, yes, I mean I think for queer youth in particular, there is a lack of connection to mentors, ancestors, um, but I will say, like most of the time when I meet queer youth, I'm like, oh my God, you are crushing it and you know so much more than I did.
Rachel Duthler:So like I find myself in a pupil position, but like I still feel really lucky to be facilitating something where they can take whatever their truth is and like put it into, like, live into their reality of who they want to become and foster that for them, even if they're teaching me along the way. And so it does feel really powerful and, um, and it's not like the organization right of passage journeys doesn't just do this for queer youth, it is for youth. They have all sorts of trips, um, and, and I think in general, I mean the organization started because there are not very many Western like things in the U S that are dedicated to right of passage experiences or to coming of age or to the, you know, marking with ceremony, um, meaningfully, things and that are important in people's lives. And that's not entirely true, like I think that's particularly true for white people, and so the people who did start this organization were primarily white and, um, like you know, the organization has like shifted over time and I just want to acknowledge that there are a lot of different communities that are, you know, from different communities of color, who are doing different right of passage work or ritual work that, uh, may not be seen and it does exist.
Andrew Carroll:Absolutely. Um. Just in the same vein, share with us the impact that you see of the right of passage work, because it's it's incredibly important and it can often catalyze the transition from one stage of life into the next. That's kind of its entire purpose. Um, throughout history, that's what it's been about, is you? Know, from childhood to now you're a man, now you're a woman, now you're you know, now you, you provide you know, you create value for the village. You don't get to be a kid anymore.
Rachel Duthler:The context for right of passage with journeys is not just coming of age although that can be a part of it it's also just transitional. So sometimes people will come to journeys to do a right of passage experience because they're going through something in their life. So it might be like, okay, someone who's about to have a baby, someone who's going through divorce, someone who never, you know, got to be seen as an adult, someone who, anything that people need to mark something and they're just like, isn't the community or the like structure to mark. So I would say it is more than the kind of um, all right, we're, we're, you're entering adulthood. Now, though, um, that is sometimes a part of it for most, but I would say probably a lot of the people that are, a lot of the youth that participate, feel that way. Um, and and like I don't know if it will be that way with queer, with the queer youth, I feel like it might be more initiated into like I'm fully in my queerness and I'm claiming this. Who knows? Like everyone's transition and what they're trying to claim is different, um, but the impact it's. I actually, for the past two years I've been working with eight to 10 year olds, and then before that it was like adults and teens, and so if I'm looking at the eight to 10 year olds, um, yeah, I feel like part of like. The impact is just like having the space to share in an open and vulnerable way amongst peers and feeling safe enough to do that, and also the opportunity to work through conflict together, and that does happen like a decent amount, and the opportunity to like work through and to like take risks or to approach challenges, and then using those things and including like the solo, for example, as a way to say like I did that and so like having a new source of internal confidence of like.
Rachel Duthler:Okay, it may not mean that, oh, suddenly I'm a different person, but it might more mean like, oh, I'm forgetting who I am.
Rachel Duthler:I'm feeling really down and this is a ceremony, is something that can mark a time to go back to, when you knew something really important about yourself and you did something very brave, and so it feels to me like and this is actually from my personal experience, which is like it's an anchor to return to when you get lost, where it's like, oh, like I knew some things then and, of course, like I've been changing and growing since then. But I know that I can do something hard and I know that you know I have community that was there to love and support me and just like almost like the somatic feeling and the internal feeling associated with whatever transition that you were trying to make is super powerful to like. Have this body felt experience of like of I don't know exactly what it is like, not exactly like I've reached a goal, but more of like I feel I believe in myself, kind of in a way, and like I'm adequate and I'm worthy, something like that.
Andrew Carroll:I'm hearing empowerment.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, yeah, that's good, yes, yes, yeah, it's a good summary right there.
Andrew Carroll:That's, oddly enough, something that I feel like is kind of missing quite often in our modern age. There's so much disempowerment built into the system, the oppressive system, and just the profitability of dissociative coping strategies is phenomenal.
Rachel Duthler:It is large.
Andrew Carroll:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Rachel Duthler:It is large.
Andrew Carroll:So you said you're working mostly with eight to 10 year olds, but that's I just want to make it clear because you know you know that people are going to want to meet with you.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, I worked with eight to 10 year olds to do right of passage trips. Like, but that my primary work as a therapist is all adults. And then right now, with this new right of passage trip, I'm doing teens. And then in the past I've done teens and adult work. Yeah, but like, my primary work is actually with adults.
Andrew Carroll:All right. So I'm like and EMDR and specifically like trauma, trauma informed therapy. Right Is that? Is that the proper phrasing?
Rachel Duthler:You can use whatever phrasing. I feel like trauma informed is kind of just thrown around, like I don't even know what that means. To be honest, I'm like, yes, I'm trauma informed, I guess because I've taken a bunch of trainings. But like people use that phrase like trauma informed means a, b, c, d, I don't know exactly. I'm like yeah, Okay.
Andrew Carroll:Do you feel like people are using it as a way to signal like we're not trying to trigger you? Hmm.
Rachel Duthler:I think people, I think some people are using it genuinely as, like a, we care about harm and preventing more harm from happening, and I think some people use it in a way to signal that they're with it.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, and that's a. I mean that's all right. There's a lot of signaling that has to go on. It's gotten very noisy. It really has got.
Rachel Duthler:But it matters, I'm so. It does matter, like like you know when, yeah, I, I feel like I would more gravitate towards, um, like when people are talking about if you somebody's hosting a workshop and they say like okay, we're going to keep people safe in this way, in this way, versus someone who's like trauma informed, like what does that mean? But I do think it really matters that people are focusing on that and paying attention to that, because there are some people who don't at all and often, like more trauma happens because people are not paying attention.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, that makes, that makes sense, makes sense.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, yeah. Let's go back to talking about play.
Andrew Carroll:Let's go back to talking about play. Let's do it.
Rachel Duthler:Tell me, tell me I don't know what. I'm going to say what's coming up for you.
Andrew Carroll:I don't know, I have. I have a question for you. Um, I'm pretty new to the conscious community. In some ways Like I've been a little solo explorer, um, for a really long time trying to do my work alone, not in a community without tribe, and now I have this really beautiful conscious community around me out here in Seattle um, in large part Thanks to you.
Andrew Carroll:Like I said, introduce me to ecstatic dance and, um, I have a concern a little bit that in these communities, there's so much focus on not ever ruffling feathers or saying the wrong thing or being like so careful about not even unintentionally hurting someone's feelings or or triggering someone that it almost ends up putting you in this box of, uh, of paralyzation, like I don't know how to move or where to move or what to say, because I don't want to hurt somebody else's feelings.
Andrew Carroll:And my concern with that. I understand that it's coming from, uh, 99% of the time, a good heart, a good, a good space, right, but the world does not like that and I worry that we're practicing a methodology that could possibly set people up for a failure, and so I like to practice being aggressive. Um, I also love to practice moving seamlessly between my masculine and feminine energy and like all of that stuff. But I think there's, um, there's so much focus on the softness and the gentleness that we can lose that kind of connection to the animal in some ways. What comes up for you when I share that?
Rachel Duthler:I mean, there's so many threads on what you just shared. I feel like this is probably a very long conversation, but um perfect. Um, I think probably we'll have alignment in some ways and not in others, as my guess. But like um, I mean the first thing that I was thinking about. Well, actually the first thing I was thinking about was, um, I'm having some feelings about um, just kind of new age spiritual communities. Like I love ecstatic dance.
Andrew Carroll:Yes.
Rachel Duthler:Ecstatic dance is another language for me, another way to connect with people, and I really feel that way where I'm like wow, and I'm dancing with someone. I mean, ecstatic dance is not always dancing with people, I also enjoy by myself, but but this there's. There is a very special thing about um just speaking with our bodies. That happens for me when I'm doing ecstatic dance, so I love it and I think that sometimes, um in these communities, I have been feeling like there's um just like spiritual bypassing, which I think is maybe a little different than what you're talking about.
Rachel Duthler:And then I want to come back to what you're talking about, um, but yeah, when I say spiritual bypassing, it's like you know, all light and love, everything is good, like, um, and sometimes I I'm feeling like I want the deep authenticity and I want the like, the nitty, gritty, dark sharing of like what is really going on for you, because sometimes I feel like I can't feel people, um, when they're just sharing positive things and and you know, I'm sure there are people who are truly just feeling positive a lot of the time and I feel like like the human experience is so much more broad than that, um and like, so like maybe people are, you know, using spirituality as a way to bypass negative feelings, um, and or negative conversations, or challenging conversations that need to be had, um, and so that is something that's been sitting with me of like, something like I have a lot of really beautiful relationships with individuals, and then there's something about a collective experience that in like that kind of community that I'm feeling like it doesn't feel quite right, and I will say I'm very sensitive because I grew up in a very Christian environment, you know, and um, which I'm not a Christian now, as you know, and and I think, like it's, I'm very sensitive now to be able to perceive, or maybe over perceive, um, when I feel like a spiritual community is not, um holding the breadth of experience or being accountable, um to reality and to whatever pain is existing, um, so there's that.
Rachel Duthler:That's kind of what first came up in my mind, and then you're, you know, talking about one another aspect of something you're saying was like, oh, I don't want to like step on people's toes and to me and, interestingly, like I experienced that too, but like I experienced that in social justice circles, and particular in white social justice circles, where I think one product of like trying to like be good and like and like get better, like be better humans is like this obsession with being good and and the product of that sometimes feels like competition, of like okay, who's the best good, and leaves very little room for mistake making, and that is something that I have been doing my own work with is like okay, how can I embrace my mistake making so I can be in authentic connection with all people you know, including the people who are pissing me off and including the people who, like you know are from different ethnic backgrounds or races.
Rachel Duthler:For me, and like I don't think that me pretending I know everything is going to get me there, it's like me being in my full self and then you know, making the mistakes and then being responsive and when people, if people, are willing to share that you know I've made, I've hurt them and I don't mean I'm like going around, like harming people.
Rachel Duthler:I'm very careful actually, but like I think there is a problem. I do think there's a problem in, like, social justice circles and white community in particular, with, yeah, like trying to do things the right way, which is also like a problematic thinking anyways. So there's that, and then you're to. You had one other piece that stuck out to me, which was about the masculine and the feminine and about aggression and energy, and I'm like, oh man, like there's a lot there. Yeah, I think I.
Rachel Duthler:Well, first of all, I'm getting divorced from the words masculine and feminine.
Rachel Duthler:I have decided and that doesn't mean I still mostly, ish, identify as a woman, like I was like somewhere just float between women and women and non binary, and like I'm like, yeah, I like, because I'm like I don't view gender in this way, where it's like, where men or women like I just don't, but I'm like if I fall somewhere, it's towards a woman, I guess, and like, even with that, I.
Rachel Duthler:The words masculine and feminine are so frustrating to me because they're just rooted in stereotype and they are it's just like if you look at and and like you know, and that is particularly hurtful to me because I am choosing to identify as a woman in the words that are associated with the feminine are things that are typically less valued by society.
Rachel Duthler:And and like I'm just tired of it and like I think that this is absurd. It's absolutely absurd to me that we're like categorizing ourselves, our personality traits, into like two categories where it's like, okay, are you going to be more assertive and aggressive, or you're going to be like, more receptive and welcoming, and like we are obviously all those things and like in different circumstances, different times, like you know, one can come up more than the other and like and sometimes where those things? Because we've been socialized that way. It's just like absurd to me that we are trying to use these two words to sum up, like a way of being, of like I just am done, I want more complexity, I just want more complexity so in that request for complexity, then the conversation could turn into Jungian archetypes great.
Andrew Carroll:I love that.
Rachel Duthler:Okay, so, and I think, okay, I didn't respond to one thing yet, okay. I just want to bookmark it, which was about aggression and so we come back to that no, let's do it, let's go. I want to hear about Jungian archetypes well, I was.
Andrew Carroll:I only bring it up because I think to me and I was just looking at them the other day, using AI to map all the archetypes to sci-fi characters yeah, yeah, yeah, I specifically, I told it to map the union archetypes to Star Wars and the first law trilogy, which involves Logan nine fingers. It's by Joe Abercrombie. It's fantastic. Shout out to the first law, but you discover what I was so disappointed because it tried so here's this actually right.
Andrew Carroll:What did the Oracle give us? This is actually now it's a whole thing. It tried to tell me that Darth Vader was the queen archetype, and when I told it, no, you can't do that and here's why, because I tried to put gender constraints on it it was like no yeah yeah. So that's so funny that we're having this conversation in this time in now, because I was like, how are you like of all of the archetypes that Darth Vader can be? I never would.
Andrew Carroll:You could, I wouldn't you could have been like I'll give you a million dollars if you get this. I never would have guessed queen weird ever, but it was kind of right and I only bring that up because I think we're we have to understand like in an environment like this, on a podcast that's going out to all two or three people who listen to it, that's my kind of tens of thousands of people.
Rachel Duthler:If you get famous, like just take this when, when, great, when you get famous.
Andrew Carroll:I don't want the I don't want the fame. I just want to be able to share people like you with the world, because you're incredible and you, you challenge me even in a conversation like this. I know I can share with you here's how I see things and you're gonna give me a mirror to look at. That is intelligent and well thought out and your position, you live it, that exploration.
Rachel Duthler:I respect you with all of my heart you, yeah, I appreciate enjoying, enjoying having those kinds of conversations too yeah.
Andrew Carroll:So I say masculine and feminine energies, right yeah, yeah, but that's um, I mean I know more, a more broad, you know, topic to jump into union archetypes, and you're absolutely right, we are anything anytime we need to be really now there's social programming involved.
Andrew Carroll:That, tell you, taught me this earlier today a signed male at birth right, yeah see I can learn that does that kind of assigned at birth, like this is how you act, this is how you act. You know, and I just it was in that I think I was telling you and I was in that like sensual experience webinar last weekend and we were doing this whole exploration on like biases based on what comes up for you. When you see this whole like it was like an hour of doing like here's a series of pictures, write down what comes up and doing that kind of work, and there's just there's constantly, even when you are doing your inner work and you're working on these things and you know what's up for you or you have an idea of what's coming up that there's still underlying factors that are driving your behaviors and so the practice in the work is to get really familiar with.
Andrew Carroll:Okay, I know that these are the kinds of things that trigger me, so what are the precursors to that? And being able to kind of gate keep in a way without pushing it away, but integrating it at the same time?
Rachel Duthler:what are you gatekeeping?
Andrew Carroll:oh man.
Rachel Duthler:I don't mean you personally, but what do you mean when you're saying you gate keep?
Andrew Carroll:something specifically in those situations ecstatic dance. We'll go back to that as an example. Right for a couple years ago you never would have caught me dancing with another guy like I do ecstatic dance now and now I will tell everybody that the sensual dances that I share with other men at ecstatic dance are platonic and there there's nothing other than connecting and it is so beautiful and healing to have that shared space with another man that I can't even really put words to it. And supposedly I'm a poet, but it it has helped heal so much father stuff for me. It has helped heal so much relating because it's a, it's safe yeah it's safe.
Andrew Carroll:So it's those kind of gates right there, those kind of preconceived, programmed in like men don't touch and we lack touch in an incredible way in our culture in. America. Even to come back to spiritual bypassing, like you're talking about, right, all of those things, all of those things, I think that it helps, with the masculine, feminine right in a way, to just kind of describe to everyone what we're talking about. That's where I was using those terms.
Andrew Carroll:But the real meat of that is, I think, the union archetypes, because I can be a queen if I want, I can be the mother, I can be the fool king, whatever right yeah but that going jumping right into that can have the potential of pushing people out of the conversation jumping right into it telling other but other people who haven't had the whole context or the entire container, that yeah, I can embody the queen whenever I want, I can embody the fool whenever I want, and even with young, it was still sort of a gender assigned, the animus and anima, right, if I remember.
Andrew Carroll:I actually don't know him that well okay, so I'm gonna stop talking about it now because I think I've reached the end of my education. That's about as I was hoping you might be able to carry us a little further, but we are relying on the DSM to prop us up, so he's not even in there. Yeah, I can't, because the way your face gets. But that was another thing that you, you shared with me too, because we were having some conversations about past relationships and and the pain and and things that had come up with that, and I put some labels on some things and you, you reflected back to me I don't, was it diagnosable? Something that I don't, I don't remember. I was talking about narcissism, narcissistic abuse and stuff like that and you.
Andrew Carroll:You told me that you don't. You didn't really like to label him because of that, and I'm pointing at the DSM.
Rachel Duthler:That is our reason. Yeah, there's many other reasons.
Andrew Carroll:I'm not believing in late diagnoses and labeling people, yeah, yeah and we just share a little bit of that, because when you, when you share that with me, it's actually changed kind of my entire mindset around it and I have been working to not be putting labels on those kinds of things. It's just that's how this person is presenting themselves.
Rachel Duthler:I feel yeah, I feel mixed. I think that sometimes, like, if you are in an in an abusive relationship, it can be really important to have that label of like knowing that I was with someone who was a narcissist or abuser because, like, when you're in an abusive like dynamic and you're receiving abuse, sometimes, like what will happen is like you will believe it's all your fault, and it might be an important step to recognize and label that. That said, in general, I find that, as a trauma therapist, in particular, labels do not matter for healing people truly like I'm, like I will. I will give people a diagnosis if they want one. I will give people diagnosis so they can get re-insurance reimbursement by their insurance, but I don't I don't create a treatment plan any differently based on the diagnosis. That's not true. Okay, I can't say that's totally true, but I really am doing almost all my work based on like, what are your experiences? What hurt you? How is it impacting your mental health state? Now, which is all based on trauma, and you don't have to know someone's like patterned way of being to be able to like do that healing work. So there's that.
Rachel Duthler:But I also think that, like diagnosis I personally find stifling for healing in the sense that there's so much baggage associated with them and so, like, it's like okay, if you believe, like, if you have decided like okay, I believe that I am, you know, I am person with borderline personality, then you may look for evidence that that's true about yourself and you may continue to kind of like, perceive yourself and the world in that way and like, almost like, creating like, yeah, just like more baggage and more harm for yourself of like oh yeah, because so many mental health labels are stigmatized, where it's like not just like oh yeah, I have borderline personality disorder Like, if you can hold that without shame, that's awesome.
Rachel Duthler:And like you know, like we are I hopefully we are working towards that, but I think the world that we live in doesn't usually see that without shame and so I don't know, I just feel like usually the giving someone a diagnosis just like creates more shame to deal with in mental health therapy and then, besides that, I don't know, it just feels uncomfortable, like for like, so like we were talking more in the context of like personal lives and giving someone or like telling, saying that someone was this way or that way, and personally for me it feels difficult, and I don't know if this is the right thing or not, because I never will know someone else's life more than they do. Now, what are your thoughts?
Andrew Carroll:I guess it really comes back to being in a relationship that's unhealthy and doing my best to see all sides of it. I think you said you know when you're in that situation you're really off balance and you're really uncertain about what's even going on. And I look back at the relationships that I was in and I had. I was so confused and that was part of the strategy was to keep me off balance all the time to constantly be questioning myself am I the problem?
Andrew Carroll:What do I need to do better? How can I fix this? And then to find out also that I was being discussed in that person's therapy sessions, and maybe I what do you trust?
Andrew Carroll:right. Like what do you trust? Because I was always the problem and she was always perfect and it didn't matter what I did. I was wrong. So I was the narcissist and I was the abuser and I was the one who had borderline personality disorder and I needed to make amends and I needed to fix Andrew and I had to go to church and all these things right had been weaponized against me. Basically, all of my gifts and talents and skills had been twisted and if I took any of the light off of her or I didn't focus all my energy on validating her, then I was wrong and I would pay for it. So I didn't even do any research into narcissism or borderline personality disorder until that relationship was like crumbling. And when I finally did, I was like, oh, you screwed up telling me about this stuff, because now I'm doing this research and like checking off, I have no in my journal still like I wrote down the whole list of like behaviors and I would go through and I'd write down specific examples of how that had happened to me or how that had shown up in the relationship. And I wasn't perfect.
Andrew Carroll:I tried to leave the relationship. I allowed myself to get sucked back in at one point in time and I was in a different relationship at that time and so I wasn't at my best and, man, I tried to close the door and as soon as I cracked it back open, my entire world. I was healing like I was doing well, my work was getting better, my back hanging out with my friends, like, and I cracked that door open and it was just like an entire tornado came into my life and just destroyed it, and I let that happen. I wanna make that very clear to everybody who's listening. Like I have to own 100% of all that. I have agency.
Andrew Carroll:I could have walked away at any time. I could have said, no, I'm worth more. I could have held my boundaries, but I didn't, and so that's probably one of the biggest things that I have taken out of that experience is that I don't hold any animosity towards my ex for anything that happened in the relationship. I am 100% responsible for me, and I wish her the best. I truly do. I loved her with all my heart. I still do to this day. I want the best for her, and what that looked like for me was walking away, because what was happening in that relationship wasn't good for either one of us. I don't know if that's happened. I will never find out.
Andrew Carroll:I have zero contact and there's no way for us to be reconnected. And that's the healthy, loving thing to do.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, I mean they're so painful. Relationships are so painful when they bring out the best and the worst in us, when they're really powerful.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, there's so much to. It's almost. I mean, it's super important to review past relationships, but it's important not to dwell on them and you definitely have to take the lessons and carry them forward, for sure.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, I mean that's why I became obsessed with trying to find solve it. It was like a puzzle I needed to solve because I was like this cannot happen again and I need to have I need safe, healthy relationships. And so then I did kind of become obsessed with, like what happened, why did it happen? And at some point I just had to be like I don't know. Honestly, I don't know, and it's confusing and I can tell you some things about it and I do think that I have more like. The things that I did learn are like I'm not able to tolerate when people tell me like I shouldn't feel a certain way, like now I know. Now I know that when I'm like this won't happen again to me, because I know I get to feel however. I feel yes absolutely. Yeah.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, that's so important. I'm glad you brought that up because, especially when you're open and available to holding that space for somebody else, when that person who maybe tells you you don't get to feel that way, when they come to you with a feeling and you're allowing them to be in it, that there's needs to be a reciprocity, yeah, and balance and support. Relationships can be tough, but they provide us a sandbox to explore and play and to discover so much more about ourselves, and whoever you're playing in that sand with is a gift, and that can be really hard.
Rachel Duthler:But do gifts make you feel nauseous?
Andrew Carroll:Hey, you self-selected into that. Right, I did, I did and I stuck around for unhealthy reasons. But you're right, gifts don't make you feel nauseous.
Rachel Duthler:I don't know I didn't get a lot of gifts from it, though I did. I really did. I got very intimate and deep community. I already have intimate and deep community, but in a way that I could rely on as attachment figures for myself post that relationship where it was like I was not okay and my community and friends knew, because I reached out to them and told them and shared what I needed and they showed up for me and so I gained this huge support network in a way that I feel so much more at ease in my body and myself, and that was priceless. And then I did gain a lot and it was a gift.
Andrew Carroll:I love that you just hit on that, because that's so important that you feel so much more at ease in your body and with yourself.
Andrew Carroll:One more time people I need you to hear this that she feels so much more at ease in her body and with herself, and for a lot of people, they don't understand that feeling. That's the message that I'm really trying to spread. That's so perfect. That is so perfect, rachel. You bring so much medicine to the conversation, but that ability to be one, connected with other people in a way that allows you to feel so much better in your body, so much more in tune, connected, held in community.
Andrew Carroll:To anybody listening, that is very likely a huge piece of what's missing in your life, and I think I can speak for both of us when I say that you're not alone, that other people are going through things too, and it's worth doing the work, it's worth doing the hard things, it's really worth choosing yourself and loving yourself to get to that place, because being at ease in your body is one of the best gifts ever.
Rachel Duthler:It is, it is yeah, and I will add that our body's reactions of dissociation are important. They are survival strategies and they get us through things that are unbearable.
Andrew Carroll:Absolutely.
Rachel Duthler:And so I say yes, our goal is to get in the body and to titrate it at the pace at which your body can accept it.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, that's so perfect.
Rachel Duthler:Okay, I want to go back to something else, unless you're like okay. I have more to pre-explore. Let's go. Okay, I still was curious when you asked the question about masculine and feminine and then you were like okay, I feel like there's such an emphasis on softness. I want also the aggression. I wanted to hear more about what you meant.
Andrew Carroll:Right. So really all that means for me is just tapping into the animal, the warrior, those kinds of things, those archetypes right In the community, in that community. So when, when we meet up like we, we had like a park jam day that one of the members of the community put on and it was amazing and a bunch of people showed up and I what it was like a movement jam. So it wasn't specific to dance, it was all kinds of stuff. There was acro yoga going on and that kind of thing, and I wanted to play jiu-jitsu and capoeira with with the homies, and so we did that and there's that kind of physical competition and that kind of play, wrestling, rough housing. It's so important, it's so very important and there's almost a complete resistance. Did you break it?
Andrew Carroll:Can you hear that, yeah, yeah, we're sure. Sorry, no, and I'm not a quality of sound engineer that's going to be able to edit that out. So everyone just say you know, rachel is just anxiously.
Rachel Duthler:Fucking her out of the microphone. No, I'm not anxious, I just raised the microphone. I am often anxious, but just.
Andrew Carroll:No, she's not anxious at all, that was just funny. Probably I am yeah.
Rachel Duthler:So you wanted to do capoeira.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, oh, that was you put some spice on that. I love it, love it. But even like at dance, there'll be times when we, oh man, the kind of music that I listen to is like it's real jungly, it's real primal, it's like and I love metal, as you know, we talked about that a lot. I love metal, I love it, it's so good, but not like a very specific we're talking about, like animals as leaders and my sugar and like these kinds of I don't know them. So that's okay If you know.
Andrew Carroll:You know, I don't know, yeah, but I also, like I've been listening to like the savage remixes of stuff and Aquanimous and some other things that are that really like they bring up, like this ancestral, primal, like just feeling inside of me and I want to just like pound my chest and smash the floor and break windows and throw this shit and you know, like I want to just like piss on other people's feet and let them know this is my territory, like all this stuff comes through and I I do notice that when I let that energy come out, other people will start to join me and this focus on softness kind of starts to melt away and for me, it's this balance of like.
Rachel Duthler:I know you don't like Jordan Peterson, but I'm doing it, I'm about to just leave right now. He's evil. I mean, I am serious. He is perpetuating very evil ideologies that are going to be problems. They are already problem. Okay, let's hear what you have to say.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, I was just talking about the balances, all I'm getting at.
Rachel Duthler:But what does that have to do with Jordan Peterson?
Andrew Carroll:Because the first time that I heard one of like, I watched him his videos for a while and it's funny because the person that recommended him to me is she. She is a she, I think I told you the whole story.
Rachel Duthler:Well, I mean you say other people don't know.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, other people don't know. So she was very highly educated psychology, world, religion. She'd been a yogi for very, very over 20 years. Just an incredible human being.
Rachel Duthler:You can just see me, If you can see rolling her eyes.
Andrew Carroll:Not rolling free. Roll free, roll, yeah. But if it hadn't been for her recommending it, I never would have gone and listened to any of his stuff. Right? But he proposed the idea that to be good without knowing how to be evil, it means nothing, and that was a really interesting concept for me though. Okay For me in my lived experience, right, I grew up very strictly Lutheran you are. Shame was the name of the game. Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Duthler:So um we should do a podcast about religious trauma.
Andrew Carroll:I am totally down. So that'll be our next episode. Together is an entire episode on religious trauma. Yeah, that does sound fun. Actually, it sounds super fun. So, jordan Peterson yeah, so the idea and maybe it's not his, I don't know.
Andrew Carroll:I didn't do any other research outside of that but it just hit me in my heart of like, if I'm constantly pushing away my shadow and I don't know how to be evil, if I am choosing peace without the knowledge of how to bring aggression and war, then what is that?
Andrew Carroll:I'm being passive and I'm not even really like living a fully expressed life.
Andrew Carroll:So, to tap into all of that energy and I've shared with you the other kind of work that I've done, but I haven't really talked about it too much on this podcast, I'm not going to get into it now but that work also helps me understand that by pushing away parts of myself, I was killing myself and causing a really unhealthy expression into the world. So that's what I'm talking about when I say, when I'm at dance or I'm in these places and I feel this aggressive energy come up, that it's a safe place to express it, because people can play with me or not, and I've found people in our community that will play aggressively with me. There's people that will get into a little bit of wrestling or a little bit of the capoeira or a little bit of like slapping around or just being really animalistic in that, and it's so, it's so good. And then when that passes and I've gotten that out, then I can go right back into flow and just being soft and gentle and sensual and just like, oh so sexy.
Andrew Carroll:But it all, it all needs to come out, and people have come and talked to me and said thanks for doing that. Even at the Porongi concert I let some animal out and people came to me afterwards. It was such a beautiful experience. But to just be told in an environment like that, where there's so much healing going on, that me, just being a crazy animal, gave someone else permission to do that and get some stuff out and work through some things, it was so beautiful. So that's what all I was talking about. Like I'm not trying to go pound on anybody or anything like that. I don't I don't know.
Rachel Duthler:I just wanted to. I wanted to hear more because I was like I know I'm going to have thoughts and responses, but I need to know what you're saying before. Yeah.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, tell me, tell me, tell me.
Rachel Duthler:Anytime you start with Jordan Peterson and just just die.
Andrew Carroll:I only named out him for this conversation to happen right now, so you can have this space.
Rachel Duthler:Sorry everyone, but I do not promote Jordan Peterson.
Andrew Carroll:I don't even know that the fan base of the ashale day podcast probably doesn't support him either. Great yeah.
Rachel Duthler:Okay, um, yeah, I think let me see where to start to go. Um the idea of, like there's so many things, um the way that you're talking about playing at dance, like to me is play. It is play and it's not necessarily. I don't know, maybe you could call it aggressive play, but like I know what you're talking about and like I mean I know what you're talking about in the sense of I, I like to do that sometimes where it's like there's this push, pull energy, yeah.
Rachel Duthler:And sometimes the push up, pull energy is like light, and sometimes it's big and being big is fun. Yes, it is. You gotta get big sometimes and it's so fun, um and like we are so contained all the time, all the time.
Rachel Duthler:And so it feels really good to not be contained. Um and like, I really identify with that and how good that feels. Um and like, I imagine, like you know, dancing with someone or like, or I'm like pushing someone across the floor and I'm like that's good, that feels good, or, but then, like sometimes I'm following as someone does that or whatever. It's like it's just fun and like you get to do that in Kupueta or in like whatever other martial arts like it is, I get it.
Andrew Carroll:Um, it is play. I'm glad you put the. I'm glad you said that yeah. It's just, it's a game. All of it's a game. Yeah, yeah, and it's the best game.
Rachel Duthler:Um and okay. Then you brought this idea of Jordan Peterson's. That's like if you don't know how to be aggressive, you don't know how to be soft, or something like that.
Andrew Carroll:Basically, it's if you don't know how to be dangerous, you don't know how to be peaceful.
Rachel Duthler:I don't think I agree with that Like well, there's a I do. I do agree with the like we need to unearth our shadows. If we don't unearth our shadows and we just pretend they're not there, they're just going to come out sideways 100%. Please everyone, unearth your shadows.
Andrew Carroll:Absolutely. Man shine a light into the darkest parts and integrate it all.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, integrate it all and like release the shame, like yeah, say that again louder for the people in the back Release the shame.
Andrew Carroll:Release the shame, yeah, oh it's so important.
Rachel Duthler:And then but I don't necessarily think that equates to okay, say it again.
Andrew Carroll:If you don't know how to be dangerous, you don't know how to be peaceful, or even a little bit further. If you don't know how to be dangerous, then being peaceful means nothing.
Andrew Carroll:Oof, I just see, and that's my. I have the exact opposite reaction that you do to that Like and I don't know if it's how, where I grew up and how I grew up or what, but I was and maybe it's walking down around as a slightly above average size like mixed race black guy. For me to be dangerous out in public raises a lot of issues. It can like if I get, if I get loud and I start making a scene in the wrong places, that could have life-ending consequences for me. Yeah.
Andrew Carroll:Right, right. So, and where I grew up, it was all white people, all white people. So there was constantly just this message for me to to not be to make sure I wasn't dangerous, that I didn't come off as dangerous. Yeah. And I had to figure out how to. I mean, I didn't figure out until 35, 36 years old Like how to you can't live, I couldn't live.
Andrew Carroll:And so when I heard that from him, it hit me so deeply in my core because I had boxed and I've done some combat sports and played rugby and I know like I've only been in two fights in my life and unfortunately I didn't get hurt and I could say that I won those fights and I learned so much about myself in those moments and one of the major things that I learned is that I do not like hurting other people.
Andrew Carroll:I hated it, I cried, cried like bald. But to know that I can be dangerous and that I am choosing to be peaceful is so much, it was so transformative for me. From my childhood and my upbringing was of that I did not have the option.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, yeah, well, you got me, that really got me.
Andrew Carroll:No.
Rachel Duthler:That was very compelling yeah.
Andrew Carroll:So, maybe it's just that because he conceptualized an idea for me, for, like, the first exposure of it, of the first exposure to that idea for me was through him, is why and I know you hate it, I know you hate it.
Rachel Duthler:I mean, I just am thinking about he's a white professor in suburbia. Like who has. I'm just like it's not the same yeah.
Andrew Carroll:Fair. But that's what it meant for me, right? Like that's really what the context came down to in my experience.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, I see that Like yeah, as a black man, of like this experience, of like being having that identity placed on you as dangerous, and like the pain of that and where the pain I imagine associated with that.
Andrew Carroll:And make you imagine well.
Rachel Duthler:And then like how you know, incorporating that shadow would be really important and I can see that yeah. Yeah. I have more to say.
Andrew Carroll:Do it, send it, all of it. Let's go.
Rachel Duthler:So I also am thinking about this book, another book, it's called Humankind.
Andrew Carroll:Oh yeah.
Rachel Duthler:Did I talk about?
Andrew Carroll:this. You've told me about this several times and I saw on my list. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Rachel Duthler:Tell us, tell us.
Andrew Carroll:Who's the author?
Rachel Duthler:Rutger Brugman or something, something like that. He's Dutch, Rutger Brugman, Rutger Brugman, something like that. Okay, Humankind, but it's essentially. I started reading that book as a recommendation from a friend because I grew up very Christian and in the Christianity I grew up in, one of the taglines is that humans are totally depraved. We are born sinners. We're bad, we're evil.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, be ashamed of yourself. Be ashamed of yourself, yes, be ashamed of yourself and oh man, I don't.
Rachel Duthler:Go yeah.
Andrew Carroll:So this is so something that's come up for me in my work, and I think what ties into exactly what you're about to go into, is there's three major levers of control in our society of the individual, and I think their shame, guilt and fear. How does that hit for you?
Rachel Duthler:Sure, I don't know. I mean, like those feel right. I don't know if there's just three, maybe there's more.
Andrew Carroll:Oh, there's definitely more, but I think those are kind of the top three, that gift.
Rachel Duthler:I feel like shame is the highest probably.
Andrew Carroll:That's, I would agree.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah, or fear shame and fear, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, but I find those to be very present in what you're about to talk about, so I just wanted to bring all that seasoning into that.
Rachel Duthler:So I grew up with this belief system that made me feel highly shameful about myself and, yeah, fear was there too, because I thought I was going to go to hell if I did things wrong. But and I didn't have the right beliefs. Anyways, because of that belief system, I have been undoing the belief that I'm bad for a long time and like. So much of my therapy is about that Of like, not like, about working through this belief of I'm bad, which gets triggered in different circumstances. Anyways, a friend of mine, after hearing me talk about that, was like I think you should read this book and it's called Human Kind and the book is about kind of undoing our we've been handed a perception of humanity that human nature is bad through psychology, through biology and through religion and probably other places, through history or like a historical analysis which is often not accurate. So essentially, he goes through all of these different research studies, historical accounts, anthropological accounts and what's happening over there.
Andrew Carroll:Don't mind me, I'm just trying to produce and sound engineer and listen at the same time.
Rachel Duthler:So he goes through all these historical accounts and like looks at the ways in which, like historians, scientists, religious figures have painted the stories where we're humans, like as humans being, like evil creatures, and then goes through and debunks the majority of them, like there are things you can't avoid, like genocide.
Rachel Duthler:It's a little problem, but he is like taking a look at it and is thinking about humanity in the terms of like okay, what is different about humans? How did this happen? How could this have happened? And he's saying like our downfall is actually that we so want to be connected to and have belonging with the crowd, or like the people around us that we will say like yes to things when maybe they don't feel quite right to us, in order to like stay in the group and so like that's what happens often with genocide and other things that humans do that are atrocious. And anyways, I will get to the point eventually.
Rachel Duthler:So he's looking at modern things and he's also going back and looking at like accounts of war, accounts of murder and violence that happened during and during agriculture and pre-agriculture, when humans were living like a more nomadically mostly nomadically, or, like you know, we're hunting and gathering instead of like doing a lot of like, larger scale agriculture, and what he at least has seen is what's reported is that accounts of murder, of violence, of war all of it is less, way, way less. And so it's interesting to me to think about the word aggression and about warrior in that context, because it's like, like when you're talking about it, it's almost like I hear you implying like that's a part of human nature too, and I'm like is it or is that a part of industrialization and agriculture and what we've created? In fact, it might not be a part of our animal selves as much as we think. And so, like, how do we separate the sense of like violence from this kind of like aggressive player, big play, you know, and be able to like, still feel this full self, part of ourselves?
Rachel Duthler:And I see why it's really important for you, as a black man, to incorporate the idea of being dangerous. And it's okay because, like I also know from me, it was really important to incorporate the sense of being bad and being like, yeah, I'm bad, I still love myself Because, like, if I allow, it was like actually, yeah, if I like, if I didn't allow myself to do that, I think I would just be stuck with this fear, this constant fear of like I'm gonna be bad or I'm a problem, instead of just I don't know. It just changed something in me, so I can see why that is really important to you.
Andrew Carroll:Anyway, that's beautifully stated, that's beautiful. And just tapping on the warrior thing again, right, that's. I think what you pointed out is absolutely right. I don't think that we were going around warring like crazy when we were in the hunter gather days. You know, like warrior is really important to me because I was visited by that in a vision and I view that as more of a protective role. I don't see it as going out on the war path like going and trying to rape, kill, pillage and steal, not like that at all. Not to me, the warrior is providing, the warrior is protecting. The warrior is capable of anything, of being out and alone and surviving, of being a part of the value creation of the village and the tribe. So when I say warrior, that's more of what I'm talking about, is for me. I can show you a picture and I'll pop it up in this feed when I put this up, but he's really tribal, you know, almost naked, bare feet. Who is this?
Andrew Carroll:you it's a child. No, no, it's a picture that came into my life in probably around 2013, but it was 2022. I had taken some mushrooms and was doing my work. I had my eye cover on and I was going into the body and doing all that big work that I do, and what it comes for me always is this huge wave of fear.
Andrew Carroll:First, it's just absolute terror that I always I have learned to sit with and be present with, and in my space internally it's always I have a spirit, fire, and it's kind of like jungle, like all that's kind of my stuff when I'm in this place and I was being stalked through the jungle and that's where the fear was coming this time and I had just got tired of it.
Andrew Carroll:So, I went, I sat by my fire and I had called it in. I said come on like, come here, join me. You were invited, I have an invitation for you. And just huge pitch, like all pure black, red eyes, 12-foot, like spear, comes out of the jungle, sits down by my fire with me and we're just there and we're together.
Andrew Carroll:And this sense of calm came over me and the only thing that was spoken was for me to take off my mask and as soon as that happened, this deck of cards, of faces got shuffled and I went, dropped all the way down to my root, and I saw this disconnection of myself that I was like so you know, yeah, disconnected, and as I'm in this place and I'm looking at this thing, I'm like, wow, man, I really should put that back together. And then it hit me like, oh, I can't actually like tangibly put this back together right now, in this moment. So I like reached out and grabbed these pieces of myself and I put them back together and I came back up to the fire in that place and just felt. It felt really, really impactful. And the way that these kinds of things can go sometimes was that the guide in that moment told me yeah, that's cool, man, but I told you to take off your mask.
Andrew Carroll:And then I was like, oh, my eye bag. So I took off my eye cover and went out into the yard and communed with the grass and the trees.
Rachel Duthler:But yeah, and that's part of why Warrior is so important to me- so okay, I'm just kind of getting clear of like the Warrior was the giant figure.
Andrew Carroll:Yes, yeah, and it's always been there. It's always been a part of me, a part of me that I turned away from.
Rachel Duthler:And like what did it mean to you? Like to me in that moment like it sounds like it was a protector too.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, absolutely. Who had been pushed away into shadow.
Rachel Duthler:And what in the past, like what was making you push that figure away, the danger?
Andrew Carroll:just being open to that part of myself of the potential, the ability to wage violence and destruction. And so I was doing all those things in past relationship too. And even then, at that time I can't sit here and pretend that I'm enlightened right Like old patterns started to come up and it was, I don't even wanna say without intention, but it was also not intentional. But I was waging war and destruction and pain and hurt and all these things on the shadow side because I had not integrated that part of myself. And it's a process. I don't want people to hear any of this and think like, oh well, then you had that realization and boom, like snap of the fingers it was all fixed. It's like no man, you get a teaching and then you gotta start practicing and you have to start digging in and you've gotta start changing the thought patterns. And once you're aware of it and you've been given that lesson, then you've got even you've got more work to do.
Andrew Carroll:And that's what the integration is to me is the actual practice and the repetitions of making new choices and building new habits.
Rachel Duthler:It's really interesting to hear you talk about that because, like immediately when you're talking about this character, this being, this protective figure, it made me think about part's work like in therapy, but specifically about like I am often trying to help people create a part that will be like I'm gonna show up for you no matter what, or like get in touch with that part, because I think we all actually have that, because we still exist and if we're still here, we're still trying for ourselves. That part is there and so like it feels yeah, it feels like really similar to this, like actually like self-compassionate part, where it's like I love you so much, then I'm gonna keep trying for you no matter what.
Rachel Duthler:And that includes I'll fight for you. And sometimes in the work that I do, when I'm doing parts with people, it's like, yeah, we're gonna allow that part to like beat up your mom from childhood or whatever, and like it's like I like that part and that part is so important and I think we need to divest that part from gender and sex, because everyone has that part.
Andrew Carroll:Absolutely. We're just divine beings having a human experience. Yeah, it's amazing.
Rachel Duthler:And this human needs to go to sleep.
Andrew Carroll:Yeah, this has been incredible. I hope that you feel the same. It's been so much fun. So where can people find you?
Rachel Duthler:You can find me on my website. If that's just my therapy website, I don't have anything else Shameless plug. There. I mean, I do not have any openings except for intensives right now, but I do want to start a poetry therapy group. So if you're like I love poetry therapy sounds great. Please reach out and say I'd love to join your poetry therapy group. That is yet to be created. Okay, verdoercounsellingorg. So it's V-E-R-D-U-R-E counselingorg, and verdoercounsellingorg means like a vibrant green growth.
Andrew Carroll:Oh, that's so beautiful. That's so beautiful, rachel.
Rachel Duthler:That's a fun, Andrew. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Andrew Carroll:This was so great. This was beautiful.
Rachel Duthler:Yeah.
Andrew Carroll:You're such a dear, beautiful friend and I cherish you Likewise.
Rachel Duthler:You're the best type person too, so I keep getting hired, yeah.
Andrew Carroll:Just sharing my gifts and creating value for the community that I value so much, and that's including you big time.
Rachel Duthler:All right.
Andrew Carroll:I love you so much. Yeah, All right everyone. Rachel has to go to bed. This has been the Ashe All Day Podcast and hit Rachel up. The poetry intensive and intensive and poetry therapy are going to be built.
Rachel Duthler:Yes, two separate things.
Andrew Carroll:Two separate things. Yes, two separate things. All right, we'll talk to you later, anything else, bye, bye.
